Surrender
One of my military friends say that they don’t retreat, they advance toward the rear. Well that’s what I’m doing. I am putting out the white flag, and calling the fight quits. From weeks now there has been an argument raging on the DaatTorah blog regarding Agunot and a certain corrupt Beit Din. I’ve decided that this war of attrition is just eating up too much time that could be used for more constructive things.
While I spend hours researching sources, laws, finding court docs in the US while living in Israel, the other side which is a growing number of sockpuppets, simply makes stuff up. For instance being able to get a secular divorce without ever having to file for one in a secular court. Post laws and links and every other proof that you want, and suddenly they have an easy answer. Not one that holds water mind you, but an easy answer.
So my final conclusion… It is simply bitul zman. If you are a reader here and there, I’m sorry if this comes as a disappointment. Express your outrage to the blog owner. Personally I have had enough of racism, enough of attacks on countless Gedolim ect. To sound kind of hippy dippy, I don’t need that kind of negativity in my life. I don’t have time or energy to write full Teshuvot to answer every crazy objection, and the comment thread of a blog is a horrible medium to have a halakhic discussion, especially when sockpuppetry is allowed.
If you want to discuss Agunot issues, let me know, I would gladly do some posts on the subject here, but I don’t see myself carrying on there in the near future. I may rethink that in three weeks during Bein HaZmanim, if there is a a Bein Hazmanim, but in the meantime, I’m surrendering in that war of attrition.
More importantly, how is your trip to North America going?
Quite well actually.
Michael,
Please discuss Sephardic halakha’s position on a man having multiple wives.
Rav Ovadia Yosef announced his support of it a few years back.
He did? That is news, especially since he and Rav Amar condemned in fairly strong terms. If you are referring to his ruling in Yabia Omer 5 Eh”E 1:8 in which he says that Rabbeinu Gershom only applies to Ashkenazim, you should really read that inside.
He is not advocating polygamy, he simply states that if a wife refuses to accept a divorce from her husband, and refuses to live with him, there is no need for heter meah, and that there has never been a need by Sephardim for heter meah. He cites the long standing tradition of writing in the Ketubah that a man may take a second wife with the permission of a B”D, and then criticizes the Moroccan custom of writing in the Ketubah that the wife’s consent is also required.
“He cites the long standing tradition of writing in the Ketubah that a man may take a second wife with the permission of a B”D, and then criticizes the Moroccan custom of writing in the Ketubah that the wife’s consent is also required.”
That alone clearly implies he holds that a husband can take a second wife without the first ones consent, as long as he receives B”D’s permission.
In the case of a moredet yes. Otherwise Sephardim have been against polygamy for hundreds of years.
Do you know of any reason why Rav Ovadia should oppose having a second wife? Sephardim in several Sephardic countries, as well as Teimanim in Yemen, have been doing so for centuries leading up to 1948.
“Sephardim have been against polygamy for hundreds of years.”
Which Sephardim? Certainly not all. Surely you are sufficiently apprised of history to know some Sephardim moved to the newly established State of Israel with more than one wife.
Also, at what point in history, and for what reasons, and by which Sephardic rabbinical decree, did even a subset of Sephardim start opposing polygamy?
You mean Yemenites moved to the state of Israel with more than one wife. Which is following an Ashkenazic misconception of labeling all Jews not from Europe as Sephardim. So by all, I mean those whose communities were part of the Ottoman Empire. Which would be those from North Africa, the Balkans, Turkey, Greece, Iraq, Iran, and the majority of the Arabian peninsula.
Yemenites typically rejected later Sephardic halakhic authorities(including the Shulhan Arukh which Rav Ben Zion Abba Shaul called a universally accepted opinion amongst Sephardim).
So precluding the relatively minor community in Yemen, all Sephardim have abided by a ban on polygamy which the Chida and Rav Yom Tov Algazi both wrote was a “long standing tradition” 300yrs ago. The Ben Ish Hai in his varied responsa greatly strengthened the prohibition, stating that the long standing tradition in Persia was that the husband needed to deposit a Get with the B”D before receiving their permission.
Michael: You are contending that all Sephardim have prohibited polygamy for hundreds of years and that f0r hundreds of years no Sephardi had engaged in polygamy (i.e. actively married to two or more wives simultaneously) with rabbinic approval?
Yup. That is what is written in the halakha books of the Sephardim. If you don’t like it: Tough.
” That is what is written in the halakha books of the Sephardim.”
Really? Please share a maare makom from a recognized Sephardic halakha sefer that clearly says ALL Sephardim ended polygamy hundreds of years ago.
Thanks
You mean aside from the numerous sources that Rav Ovadiah brought in the Yabia Omer that I already mentioned?
Simchat Yom Tov siman 22
Rav Pealim 2 Eh”E 13
I am going to join you in surrender.
I also stopped arguing with them. They seem to want to have agunos and look to corrupt batei dinim to help them. Good choice.
I stopped because the blog owner was sorta relying on the Jerry Springer nature of the comment threads to generate hits. Easiest solution was simply to stop providing the drama.
I see that sam and james have joined in your surrender. Truth be told, I am new to this so I can’t surrender until I say something.
. I will say that this fight is very sad and big. I will say that I hope for peace in the near future. I will hope that this has shed light on the corruption of our legal system. I sincerely hope that machon lhoraah either answer the charges or admit guilt. We need to have faith in our system. I will say that while I do not agree with ORA, they have a place in this world. This was the wrong case and shows they need new leadership. Maybe Sam will take the post. I will say I know nothing in regard to the secular laws of divorce except that I am not a lawyer and people have gone to school for many a year to learn something some bloggers think they can know in 30 seconds. I would hope that gedolim that did a misdeed go and apologize for the hurt and suffering they put someone through if their basis was wrong. I would hope that these two young people can move on with their lives and that the child be as well off in his situation as can be.
Surrender.